Ämne: variator fråga

[gurra-g]

Bättre drag och kraft framåt är väl en grej. Är väl ingen stjärnmekaniker själv men pular på. Det tar väl lite längre tid bara  :oops:
Men om man nu exprimenterar med variatorn för att få det bättre framåt hur blir det bakåt. Idag tycker jag detta är det största problemet. Kanske på gränsen till katastrof i bland när man kör fast eller behöver backa med släp  :evil:

Håller med, men det är säkerligen ett rätt stort ingrepp i växellådan som krävs för det. Jag kan bara inte begripa varför dom gjort det så dumt, annars så är det ju en bra maskin på alla sätt.

Det kan ju vara så att lådan är kopierad rakt av något annat fordon,
för att hålla nere kostnaderna kanske.

[MadMike]

Enfråga till Gurra_g : Kan man enkelt spänna fjädern i sekundären
och isåfall hur gör man

Anledningen till mina frågor är att jag tycker att lågväxeln är lite
för hög ,jag håller på med lite konstiga saker som tex.att släpa på en
gammal slåttermaskin för hästar!! :? för att slå vägkanter med...då är det lite svårt att hålla låg fart samtidigt som jag har drag på maskinen.
Toppfart är för mej ointressant.

Jag rekomenderar utan vidare trimvariator-kittet, med det får du upp vridet, eller så kan du plocka in shims under fjädern i sekundären  :arrow:  blir styvare så.

[olish]

Jag rekomenderar utan vidare trimvariator-kittet, med det får du upp vridet, eller så kan du plocka in shims under fjädern i sekundären  :arrow:  blir styvare så.[/quote]

Ska kolla det där med shimsning.
Någon som vet var jag kan hitta bra sprängskisser på linhaien och finns kylfläktmotorn att köpa som reservdel eller blir det hela fläkten??

[pålamalm]

starkare fjäder bak=topp fart
starkare fjäder fram =starkare vid start
vikterna är vid vilken rpm som skivan går mot rem

[gurra-g]

starkare fjäder bak=topp fart
starkare fjäder fram =starkare vid start
vikterna är vid vilken rpm som skivan går mot rem

Nja med starkare fjäder bak så kommer dragvarvet att vara högre över hela registret, det borde inte påverka toppfarten.

Och på Linhai så drar remmen från noll, den har en centrifugalkoppling för tillslaget. Vad som händer när man tar bort vikter är att variatorn växlar ner vid belastning, och upp när belastningen minskar.
Och det är precis vad som är önskvärt

[pålamalm]

As we all know, clutching is a very complicated subject. In fact, some people will tell you it’s simply a “Black Art” that takes years to understand. As an engineer I always look for evidence that supports a complete theory of clutching. What has always worked for me is using computer simulation to give direction in which way a mechanical system will behave. Often, simply removing preconceived notions from my way of thinking can result in true knowledge gained. This has been my experience many times, what I thought was true, was not! When you have an end result in mind before you start a project you rarely come up with the right answer. Always ask yourself, “how does the system fit together, how does one component react with the other component in the system?

Clutching is one of those high emotional areas of snowmobiling. Pipes and porting also draw lively conversation, and I think its all for the same reason. Most high performance snowmobiles want to go fast. As fast as the limitations of the engine size will let them. There is nothing like getting your 600cc sled to out run an 800 in a 660 ft. drag race. That’s bragging rights.

This article deals with one of the most asked questions in all of high performance snowmobiling. Savvy tuners realize that working with several different clutching components can give similar end results on the tachometer. For example, putting in lighter flyweights gives similar results on the tachometer as putting in a shallower helix. But one set-up is faster than the other, so is just reading the tach the right answer? Which clutch should I work on, and why? These are some of the most asked questions in all high performance snowmobiling.

This article uses computer simulation to try to answer some of those questions. Many man hours of programming and engineering are represented in the following pages. A “Static” analysis is the first step in understanding what the system needs to basically work.

Low CVT Efficiency Leads to Slow Acceleration
The CVT clutch system is one of those brilliant but simple devices that manufactures, purchasing agents, and engineers like to see. It is simple to assemble, cheap to build, and it is very efficient in power transfer when properly calibrated. Chances are they will be around for a while.

Overall CVT clutch efficiency is based on several major factors, but as we will see tuners have control over just a few of them. Listed below are the “built in” areas of efficiency loss. These losses are due to engineering compromises that always occur when designing an entire power train package. High performance customers and engineers alike do not like the word “compromise”, but it’s a fact of life. Product cost, standardization in tooling, and environmental issues are all things that have to be considered when designing any product.
In a CVT transmission, standardization in tooling seams to be the driving force of many engineering decisions. All four major snowmobile manufacturers use the same clutch on a variety of different machines. For example, Polaris uses its P-85 clutch on 35 hp 340cc fan cooled machines all the way up to the XCR 800 making 160 hp. Polaris makes many different tuning components such as springs (primary and secondary), flyweights, helixes, gears, and shims, but that’s not what we are talking about. It is the fixed variables (an oxymoron) that are basically cast into the design. Things like center hub diameter, sheave face angles, outside diameters, contact patch area, and material choices. These are just a few major design considerations that greatly affect CVT clutch efficiency. Designing a CVT clutch system around 35hp@7200 rpm instead of 160hp@8500 rpm will result in a lot of compromises. All manufacturers have this same problem; how to achieve the best overall performance for a variety of different engines and sled designs.

These above mentioned areas of CVT clutch design are basically fixed by each manufacturer. Some of these design choices are impossible to change and would require a complete redesign and retooling of the clutch itself.

Contact Patch
The contact patch area between the belt and the sheave face is the easiest but most critical function to understand. It is a physical measurement of degrees of contact between the belt and the sheave faces multiplied by the thickness of the belt. The cross sectional area of the belt is constant and does not change, but the contact angle between the belt and sheave face (both drive and driven) does. This changing contact patch between the belt and the sheave faces is the most critical area of clutch tuning to understand. It is this changing contact patch that requires the CVT clutch system to continually change the amount of force being applied to the belt from both the drive and the driven clutch. Belt stretch above transferring the torque of the engine will result in a drop In CVT drive efficiency. The results will be lower track horsepower.

The schematic diagram and data provided in Figure #1is very powerful and shows how the contact patch changes during shift out for both the primary and secondary clutches. Ten equally spaced shift ratios from 3.8:1 (low ratio), and 0.8:1 (over drive) are shown. The degrees of contact between the sheave faces and belt are calculated by using SAE standard formulas at the belt pitch diameter. Since the belt is a constant length, as the shift ratio increases the belt contact angle between the primary clutch and belt also increases, and conversely the contact angle in the secondary clutch decreases.

Figure 1


Also notice the rate of contact angle gain (in the primary) and lose (in the secondary) is not linear. In other words, the degrees of contact between the belt and the sheaves change much more rapidly as we approach the 1:1 shift ratio. The rate of angular contact appears to be linear up to the 1.84:1 shift ratio then it changes drastically. This should be your first clue that a straight angled helix is not the optimum solution to achieving maximum CVT clutch efficiency.

The most important data in figure #1 is that the primary clutch has less contact patch area then the secondary clutch until the 1:1 shift ratio. This means if you have poor acceleration and mid range pull, the primary clutch is more than likely the proper clutch to be working on because slippage is more likely to occur due to the smaller contact patch in that clutch.

If you are searching for more top speed, the secondary clutch should be altered for the same reason. Installing a less aggressive helix, a stiffer secondary spring or changing gear ratios will increase side force on the belt preventing the belt from slipping due to the rapidly decreasing contact patch area in that clutch.

Understanding Helix Angles
In the secondary clutch, a helix /spring combination is used to generate belt squeezing and up shifting forces. Helixes and secondary springs are calibrated to balance the pull from the belt created by engine torque plus the up shift force generated by the primary clutch at a point where the engine will shift out at a constant rpm.

The secondary clutch works off a torque feedback mechanism that senses load at the track through the chain case. This torque feedback mechanism is a very clever device that has been a challenge to simulate.
Just like the primary clutch, belt squeezing forces are the “axial” forces created by the sheave angle. (Caution: Do not confuse the sheave angle with the helix angle.) Squeezing force is the force that stops the belt from slipping due to changes in engine torque and the changing contact angle during shift out.

Up shifting forces are also refer to as “belt pinch” by many old timers in the business. Belt pinch provides the “balance” between the primary and secondary clutches. It is the radial forces created by the sheave angle. Belt pinch is created in both primary and secondary clutches, but instead acting in the same direction they appose each other. This opposition of forces makes the CVT clutch sensitive to load changes.

Figure 3

As we have shown in the past, most primary clutch sheave angles are between 24-28 total degrees depending on the manufacturer. In the secondary clutch total sheave angles as low as 19 degrees have been measured. Why don’t some secondary sheave angles match the primary clutch? There may be good reasons.

Secondary clutches produce belt squeezing and belt pinch forces through the use of a helix/spring mechanism. The helix is the primary component in the secondary clutch that develops these forces. A secondary spring is used as a fine tuning device, and in most cases the magnitude of a spring change is small compared to the helix (but not all cases). To simplify the following information, helix force data is shown only. Spring data is fairly easy to obtain and comprehend.

Figure #3 shows a simple helix diagram. Notice all calculations are taken at the button/roller contact point.
Axial displacement, angular displacement, and helix radius are all major design features used to calculate forces of different helixes. Axial, and angular displacement is taken at the point of first to last contact between the button/roller and helix angle.

Figure 4

Using a Yamaha helix and the SRX 700 power curve as an example, Figure #4 shows how much belt squeeze, and up shift force is produced at 90 ft-lb of engine torque, 100 % traction with several different helix angles.

As you can see, changing the helix angle from 40-52.5 degrees will drop the belt squeezing force from 1414.5 to 918.2 lbs. at the 3.8 shift ratio. A 35% decrease in squeezing force. Up shift force also drops the same percentage. Also notice at full shift (.8:1 ratio) there is very little between the different angled helixes. This is a key piece of tuning information that you will use in the up coming example. All four major manufactures helixes act the same way but use different helix radiuses. Arctic Cat and Yamaha use about the same 45mm radius, Where Ski-Doo and Polaris use about a 40mm radius.

The data in figure #4 shows that you will see big differences in belt squeezing and up shift forces at low shift ratios, but don’t expect big differences at the full shift out point.

You can also build a helix with this data; just connect a start point to an end point. A compound 50-40 helix will yield the same results.

Putting it all together
Last year we showed how different primary clutches (Ski-Doo TRA& Polaris P-85) worked. They have two different mechanisms that provide force to the belt in different ways. The analysis shown in this article provides information on how the secondary clutch works. Comparisons can how be made at different shift points.

The common denominator between the primary and the secondary clutch is the belt. It acts as a link between the two clutches and all it sees are pulling and squeezing forces. The belt is the key component of the entire CVT clutch system. As we mentioned earlier low CVT efficiency will result in low track horsepower. Belt slippage and belt stretch are the two functions that must be controlled though proper calibration.

Each manufacturer has it own standards of calibrating CVT clutching. Calibration is dictated by engine power, machine and driver weight, and traction just to name a few.

Figure 5

In the example below we will examine a clutching set up for the Yamaha SRX 700. For this analysis a 45 degree helix was used instead of the standard 47 degree, and a 53 gram weight is shown instead of the 51 standard weight.

Figure #5 puts both the primary and secondary clutch on the same page. It compares both belt squeezing and up shift forces at equally spaced shift points. To fully understand the power of this information I have added a few notes to the graph.

In the circle (start of up shift point) the graph shows the two up shift curves crossing. This means with our calibration, over rev. off the bottom will occur. Notice the analysis is run at 8500 rpm, and 90 ft-lbs of torque. The primary clutch has not generated enough up shift force to over come the up shift force in the secondary. The two up shift points should be the same before the clutches will start to shift out. This problem can be solved by two different methods. Adding more clutch weight to increase the up shift force in the primary, or by putting in a less aggressive helix in the secondary.

The second point of interest is the fact that the primary and secondary clutches have different shaped up shift curves. Notice the spread between the curves is greatest at the 0.4 inch point, and degrades all the way to the full shift out. This means we will have harder up shift in the midrange than we do at full shift out. Always remember the greater the differential between these two lines will result in faster acceleration as long as the motor can pull it.

The up shift lines are extremely important. The up shift from the primary clutch must always exceed that of the secondary clutch or the CVT clutch system will stop shifting out!

I talked earlier about belt stretch and belt slippage being forms of efficiency loss. Up shift force in the primary and the secondary are built in losses in the CVT clutch design. At the midrange point 310lbs of pull from the primary clutch is added to 180lbs of pull from the Secondary clutch. This then added to the pull on the belt due to the engine torque of approx. 800lbs at that shift point. A total of 1290lbs pull force on the belt, but only 800lbs due to power transfer.

The last point of interest is shown at the 1.0 inch displacement point. Belt squeezing is the most fundamental function of the CVT clutch system. Without sufficient belt squeeze there is no torque transfer. At the 1 inch /600 lbf point I place a box. At this point we should expect similar belt squeezing in both the primary and secondary clutches. Remember our discussion on how the contact patch changes as the clutches shift out. At this point the contact patch area is the same for both clutches, so similar belt squeezing forces are needed. The amount of force needed to stop the belt from slipping changes based on different factors. Belt compounds, sheave heat due to slippage, amount of traction all effect the force needed to stop the belt from slipping. Based on this target, the graph shows the Primary clutch has sufficient force to stop the belt from slipping, but that’s not the case with the Secondary clutch. It appears that this helix/spring combination does not apply enough force to stop the belt from slipping. A shallower Helix and a stiffer spring are needed.

Summary
Figure #5 contains good information. It shows the different functions of the entire system and how they relate to each other. By examining Figure #5 you can understand why this article was named as it was. In this example, increasing the belt squeezing force with a shallower helix and stiffer secondary spring will stop the belt from slipping in the secondary clutch, but also increased the up shift force. There was simply nothing we could do about it because the up shift force is fixed to the belt squeezing force through the sheave angle. This is one of those fixed variables we talked about earlier set by the manufacturers. Remember the 19-degree Secondary sheave angle we talked about earlier? You figure it out.

By trying to fix one problem, we created another. The difference between the up shift forces in the primary and secondary were already coming together at full shift out. Adding the shallower helix and stiffer secondary spring to solve the slippage problem, also creates the potential of actually stopping the clutching from fully shifting out because now the up shift force in the primary starts to match the up shift in the secondary!
Solving this problem lies in the primary clutch. Even though there is sufficient belt squeezing force in the primary clutch at the 1:1 shift ratio, additional up shifting force is needed to offset the increase up shift force due to the shallower helix angle and stiffer secondary spring. Adding more clutch weight or decreasing the top spring load are the two ways to increase primary up shift force. In most cases clutch weight is the right answer, because it takes very little weight to add several hundred pounds of load to the belt.

This was a real world example of a 2001 SRX 700 in our test fleet. By adding 63 total grams of dual quadrant clutch weight, and a 48-36 helix. The system worked as predicted. No over rev off the bottom, hard midrange pull and excellent top speed numbers.

[Lillhajen]

Var är bilderna Pålis? Annars mig icke förstå  

//L

[pålamalm]

dom ville inte följa med ska se vad jag kan göra

[STENE]

Att pilla med vikterna i variatorn på en lihan har inget med toppfarten att göra. Anledningen är att den "orkar" slunga ut vikterna max vid orginal bestyckning. Så för att öka maxfarten måste man på annat sätt ändra utväxlingen. Lättast med större däck. Sen kan man slipa av lite på variatorn så de två främre skivorna kan gå ihop lite mer = remmen kommer längre ut = utväxlingen blir en annan. och till sists Bygga om växel lådan.

För att förklara vad jag menar så tar vi ett enkelt räkne exempel. Varvtalet på motorn x Utväxlingen = varvtalet på däcken = hastigheten.
Eftersom motorn inte varvar mer (Varvstoppet slår i redan vid orginal bestyckning) och Utväxlingen inte ändras (eftersom vikterna går ut max) så kommer inte varvtalet på bakdäcken att ändras = hastigheten blir den samma.

Hur detta funkar på andra maskiner har jag inte en aning om men linhai har jag skruvat lite med och tror mig fått en ganska bra förståelse för hur den funkar.

[pålamalm]

http://www.snowtechmagazine.com/articles/2001/clutch/cltchtun.php

[STENE]

Nu vet jag väldigt lite om snöskotrar som pållens länk går till. Men jag har fått förmig att en skoter "växlar" beroende på hur spänd remmen är (tror det är detta som är Helix som de pratar om). Den "skruvar" ihop skivorna, för på en linhai är det istället vikter som slungas ut och i sin tur pressar ihop "skivorna" (primary CTV). Sedan pratas det en del om koppling (clutch) i texten, och är det inte så att på en skoter så "kopplar" den genom att remmen blir så "lös" att den inte greppar? Och på en linhai så sitter det en automat koppling i form av att kopplings backarna slungas ut och "låser" driv axeln med den bakre rem skivan (secondary CTV).

Nu stämmer säkert det mesta som de skriver i texten kanske iaf men inte till 100%